That can’t be right, if you mean imitation like comparing a statue with a man. Old statues which don’t look like real people are often much better art – and if we just want to imitate real things why have art at all? Real men are more like men than marble men are. Or why not just put a cooking pot on a pedestal and call it art, or a few old bricks or – ?

DEXIMENES

If they were called art at least we’d look at them.

MANTIAS

What does music imitate?

SOCRATES

Don’t bully him. Perhaps you would like to restate your definition.

CALLISTOS

Yes, well music doesn’t seem to copy anything. A play tells a story of course, and that’s like life –

DEXIMENES

Is it?

SOCRATES

Go on, my child, try again.

CALLISTOS

Art is like a sort of form or diagram, it’s like life only sort of different, like summarised or simplified or –

SOCRATES

Do you want to give up your idea that art is copying, imitation of life?

CALLISTOS

No, but it’s copying into a world where everything looks different and clearer, and there’s no muddle and no horrid accidental things like in life.

ACASTOS

No horrid accidental things!

CALLISTOS

It’s like a map.

DEXIMENES

How dull.

SOCRATES

Art is a sort of formal copying into a medium where things look similar but clearer and simpler?

CALLISTOS

Yes!

MANTIAS

Before you came Callistos was saying art was fabulous and marvellous and beautiful and made him happy and so on! Why don’t you say that now? Why did you suddenly say that art is copying?

CALLISTOS smugly

Because I know Socrates likes a clear answer even if it’s wrong.

SOCRATES

Why did you start by talking about painting?

CALLISTOS

It seems most like what art’s really like, I mean here’s the thing and here’s the picture and you can sort of measure the one against the other.

MANTIAS

Do stop saying ‘sort of!

SOCRATES

Yes, and we often express ideas in visual images, as when we say of music that it’s high or low. I’m touched that you tried to please me by saying something clear. But perhaps your idea is still too simple. You spoke of an exact copy, then you spoke of a schematic copy, like a map. Don’t you want to add something? When you came out of the theatre you were excited and happy –

MANTIAS

I think we should start again –

Mantias is trying from now on to take over the argument. Acastos also wants to speak and keeps raising his hand. Socrates checks them with a gesture.

CALLISTOS