SOCRATES

Not so fast please. Moral ideals can change people too.

PLATO

Not so deeply, not in the way that’s required of us, this isn’t something optional, we’re not volunteers, we’re conscripts. We’re bad, we have to become good, it’s a long way. Anyhow morality, if it’s anything serious, is something religious.

SOCRATES

Whether it knows it or not?

PLATO

Yes. I mean, what I’d call religion is what can really change us. Morality is derivative, it’s a shadow of religion, the gods are shadows of religion, we are shadows, looking for the light, looking for the sun, for what’s real and necessarily true.

SOCRATES

Many people would say that necessity belongs to mathematics and logic. In the real world things aren’t necessarily true, they may or may not be true, we have to look and see.

PLATO

That’s just where religion is different, it’s unique, it’s about what’s absolute, what can’t not be there. If we conceive it at all we see that it must be real.

SOCRATES

What is this ‘it’ that you’re certain of in this special unique way, which isn’t God and which has to exist and is proved by everything and is seen in the clear light beyond the shadows?

PLATO

Good.

ANTAGORAS

What did he say?

PLATO

Good.

TIMONAX

That’s an abstract idea.

ANTAGORAS

It’s an empty box into which we put whatever takes our fancy.

SOCRATES

By ‘good’ do you mean virtue?

PLATO

Virtue under a necessity to which everything points. I mean – to become virtuous is the absolute goal of human life –

ANTAGORAS

Oh – ! [Derisive moan ]

PLATO ignoring him

But we can’t switch it on by empty will power. We have to learn what’s true and what’s real and that is understanding and loving what’s good, that’s how everything teaches us, everything proves it –

SOCRATES

Wait – Timonax said that good is an abstract idea, and Antagoras called it an empty box. Perhaps what they meant is that it must leave us free to call all sorts of things good.

PLATO

I don’t think freedom is very important.

ACASTOS

Oh really! [ Timonax and Antagoras also exclaim ]

PLATO

Choosing just anything you like –

ANTAGORAS

That’s political freedom and it is important.

PLATO

Real spiritual freedom is very difficult. I’d rather give it some other name like – truth.

ACASTOS

Truth.

PLATO

Truth isn’t just facts, its a mode of being. It’s finding out what’s real and responding to it – like when we really see other people and know they exist. You see I think there are different levels in the soul, only a bit of us is real and knows truth, the rest is fantasy, anxiety, resentment, envy, all selfish tricks – you know. We live in a dream, we’re wrapped up in a dark veil, we think we’re omnipotent magicians, we don’t believe anything exists except ourselves. Magic is the opposite of goodness. Belief in magic is slavery. We have to change ourselves, change what we want, what we desire, what we love, and that’s difficult. But if we even try to love what’s good our desires can improve, they can change direction, that’s what I call freedom. That’s becoming morally better, and it’s possible and that’s why it’s possible. Real freedom is not to be a slave of selfish desires. It’s when you have – you know – a feeling of reality –