The tape is recording everything, but even so I feel compelled to write that down in my notebook. I visualise it as a large-font pull-quote in the centre of the long version of the published interview.

‘Are you deliberately setting out to alienate your trade union supporters by moving closer to business?’ Alienate is putting it mildly. Some union bosses – Denis Kenilworth comes to mind – will be apoplectic. ‘Isn’t there a risk they’ll punish you by withholding funding from you, money you desperately need?’

‘I don’t think anyone’s under any illusions about how I see that particular relationship. I have enormous respect for our trade unions, and their general secretaries. The work they do on behalf of their members is vital. But they aren’t elected to run the Labour Party. I am. I take orders from the people of Britain, from no one else.’

From the hall Mrs Todd is shouting, ‘Johnny, have you seen the bloody car keys?’ He breaks off. ‘Bear with me a second.’ He fishes the keys out of his jacket pocket, walks to the kitchen door, and throws them to his wife. ‘Sorry, Gil. Where was I?’

‘You run the party, not the unions.’

‘Oh yes. There’s another point. If we can invest more in our vital public services – our schools and hospitals – thanks to the taxes that are levied on rising profits and wages, then everyone benefits. Including trade unionists. We have a collective shared interest in economic success, and my reading of the general secretaries is they recognise that.’

Clare would have had a few withering things to say to Johnny about the idea that there is no tension between the interests of bosses and workers. I am sure of that. She was a daddy’s girl. But she’s not here, I am, and this is a big story.

‘On the subject of the public finances . . . You’ll remember I asked at your press conference the other morning about the dividend tax credit?’ He nods. ‘You seemed to be entertaining the idea of abolishing it. Can you confirm that if you become Prime Minister you will definitely do that?’

His hand actually reaches out and taps the wooden tabletop a couple of times. ‘If I become . . .’ He can’t bring himself to say it. ‘If we win. Yes. It’s a sensible reform that will be in our manifesto.’

‘That’s the most honest answer I’ve had from a politician – at least for a while.’

‘I’m a pretty honest guy.’

‘Can I ask where the idea came from?’