Gray switched on the news channel and saw a representative from the leading Human Rights group, Liberty, denouncing his suggestions.

“...is a clear breach of Article three of the Human Rights Act.  How can giving a young person the birch not be considered torture?  Article three defines any treatment which causes intense physical or mental suffering to be inhuman, and inhuman acts are defined as torture.  I defy anyone to tell me that the birch does not cause intense physical suffering, not to mention the mental suffering that will inevitably go with it.”

“So how would you suggest we deal with recidivists, Ms Barker?” the newscaster asked.  “As Tom Gray has pointed out, some people have criminal records as long as their arms, and the current system doesn't seem to be helping them at all.”

“It sounds like you are in favour of his reforms,” the Liberty representative said, much to Gray's amusement.

“Not at all, I'm just trying to engage in an objective debate.  You say that corporal punishment is not the answer, so what alternative suggestions do Liberty have?”

Rebecca Barker was clearly annoyed at being put on the spot, and did little to hide her displeasure.  “We advocate re-education and community punishments, giving something back to the areas they have affected.  Beating criminals has no place in civilised society.”

Gray spotted the own goal and watched the newscaster swoop in for the kill.  “Are Liberty saying that Singapore, The United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia are uncivilised countries?”

“No, of course not,” Barker blushed, “but there are thirty other countries that have judicial corporal punishment and some of these are far from civilised nations.”

“Such as...?”

“Such as Zimbabwe.”

The newscaster nodded, conceding that Barker had made a good choice, but still pressed.  “And of course, in Saudi Arabia, persistent thieves have their hands chopped off.  This certainly makes it difficult for them to commit the same crime again, yet Tom Gray is not asking the government to go that far.”

“Yes, it might prevent a criminal from committing the same offence again, but at what cost?  Given one more chance, that criminal might have changed their ways and become an upstanding member of society, but by then he has been robbed of that chance.”

“But surely the question is, how many chances does a person need?  Is four enough, or seven, or should we go on giving them chance after chance indefinitely?  I think Tom Gray's point is that there has to come a time when we say 'enough' and the criminal has to take full responsibility for their actions.”

Rebecca Barker was becoming flustered at not winning the argument, so she decided to draw the interview to a close.  “We seem to be going round in circles here.  Suffice it to say, Liberty's stance is that we strongly condemn any suggestions of re-introducing judicial corporal punishment in the UK.”