I agreed with you before, but this –!

ANTAGORAS

Something with a bit of colour in it –

TIMONAX

You mean military parades!

ANTAGORAS

People must have faith in their society. Nationalism, patriotism, why not? Those are natural emotions.

TIMONAX

I shall go mad!

ANTAGORAS

The deification of the state is being forced upon us. I don’t like it – but the alternative is anarchy!

By this time Antagoras, who is almost shouting, is thoroughly upset by his own logic, and Timonax is angry. Socrates makes pacifying gestures.

SOCRATES

This is indeed a new argument, a political argument about means to an end, means to a stable and orderly society. I think our original argument is more fundamental because it relates to values which can put political means and ends into question.

TIMONAX

He despises the morality of ordinary people, he thinks he’s got a superior morality which justifies him treating them as puppets!

SOCRATES with a gesture towards Antagoras

This would bring us back to Acastos’s question about the superstitious but virtuous peasant. Is there not such a person?

ANTAGORAS

He might be virtuous but not in respect of his superstition.

SOCRATES

It’s not so easy to separate a good man from his superstition. Might not someone who delayed his decision by praying to a god, come to a wiser decision?

ANTAGORAS

I prefer rational thought!

SOCRATES

You say this is a time of transition. Religious dogma is also changing. Could there not be a good religious way of life without the supernatural beliefs?

ACASTOS vigorously nodding assent to this question

Yes!

ANTAGORAS

I wouldn’t call that religion. I see what you are at, Socrates, but I won’t let you do it. You want to smuggle religion back as some sort of refined morality. I shouldn’t have allowed you and Acastos to posit this virtuous peasant, and I won’t let my political argument be undercut by your moral argument. I don’t believe in goodness in your grand solemn sense. I don’t believe in moral perfectionism. Morality is a profoundly relative matter, the concept is irremediably confused, it’s not something glorious and eternal, that’s what we’ve learnt from getting rid of the gods! If we go beyond the simplest ideas about morality we land in nonsense. Philosophers always try to invent some impressive background or ‘underlying reality’. But morality has no background except the actual continuance of human society, it’s practically important, but in a theoretical sense it’s a superficial phenomenon. There isn’t anything deep or high. You want to separate out a part of religion to do with perfect virtue or salvation or something, to make religion go on existing without supernatural beliefs, but there is no such part. We’re all the same, only some of us are more rational and free. Anything else is pure hypocrisy!

SOCRATES